tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32354680.post6799032704625244189..comments2023-11-03T09:05:31.265-04:00Comments on Soho the Dog: My philosophic search / Has left me in the lurchMatthewhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10936327293692397100noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32354680.post-24933188297100611972007-06-23T15:05:00.000-04:002007-06-23T15:05:00.000-04:00Tim: That's a good distinction. What I had in mind...Tim: That's a good distinction. What I had in mind as an analogue was the music-appreciation approach that encourages listeners to approach a piece analytically even though they may not have ingrained analytic habits—I would guess that instructions of that sort <I>would</I> lead non-musicians to a certain moment-my-moment "am I listening the way I'm supposed to" monitoring that would probably get in the way of tapping into the music's available happiness. <BR/><BR/>You know the Randy Newman song "Maybe I'm Doing It Wrong"? He was way ahead of the psychological research curve on this one.Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10936327293692397100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32354680.post-64268710281149536332007-06-23T11:00:00.000-04:002007-06-23T11:00:00.000-04:00That is exactly what happened to me when I heard t...That is exactly what happened to me when I heard the premier of Sam Jones' Tuba concerto on two consecutive evenings.<BR/>First evening I listened to the pre concert lecture. Mr Jones himself explaining the piece. I listened >i>for>/i> and heard none of what he described.<BR/>Second evening I listened <I>to</I> the piece and what I heard was completely different. <BR/>I am not a trained musician.Lane Savanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08678485361119088480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32354680.post-4338181920323425492007-06-23T10:58:00.000-04:002007-06-23T10:58:00.000-04:00I don't see how the conclusions about the experien...I don't see how the conclusions about the experience of listening to music while monitoring music relate so inevitably to the data about the experience of listening to music while monitoring, or trying to induce, happiness. Monitoring happiness is one, seemingly artificial, thing; listening analytically or in other close ways to music with its abstract stories and shapes seems quite another. Maybe like trying to monitor happiness while someone reads you a book vs. trying to pay attention to the story.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09290720398367159080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32354680.post-28832595218933660132007-06-23T09:25:00.000-04:002007-06-23T09:25:00.000-04:00One of the fascinating things about the musical ex...One of the fascinating things about the musical experience of an audience is the fact that it is made of a random assortment of people who are brought together by a single stimulating event. The idea of measuring something like "happiness" at a concert seems kind of odd to me. I think that it would only make sense if the concert were a concert of "happy" music. Imagine feeling "happy" at a performance of the St. Matthew Passion. I would be "happy" if my friend were one of the soloists and did a good job and I knew that she would get a good review for her performance, but the emotional content of the music is so complext that "happy" wouldn't otherwise make it into the picture.<BR/><BR/>I also think that people new to participating in the audience part of a performance have a limited attention span. Giving them a pre-concert talk and telling them what to listen for might actually take something away from the actual experience of the concert because of the attention that they "spent" while listening to the person giving the lecture.Elaine Finehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14248422399226824168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32354680.post-43293504922000206232007-06-22T23:54:00.000-04:002007-06-22T23:54:00.000-04:00I'd challenge the assumption that "happiness" is w...I'd challenge the assumption that "happiness" is what we seek from music. For me, it is the wide gamut of emotions that makes a musical experience so valuable. Sometimes I am absolutely gutted, moved to tears...not happy, but very alive.<BR/><BR/>That aside, I really do think it is about the delivery. Your typical public university music appreciation class is filled with students taking the course because it fulfills a G.E. While a group of them just want an easy A, there will be those who learn HOW to listen. If it is taught correctly, they will actually enjoy it...despite themselves. The problem is that most of the normal concertgoing audience already knows HOW to listen (or they listen according to their own definition). Attempts to pre-analyze the music makes an assumption that they don't know what they should be listening for. I think a lot of it all comes down to ego in the end.Rebecca Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02356712338959918065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32354680.post-26307648290660176802007-06-22T20:24:00.000-04:002007-06-22T20:24:00.000-04:00Matthew wrote: Just to clarify: I think what Marc...<B>Matthew wrote:</B> <I>Just to clarify: I think what Marc and I consider counterintuitive is the idea that listening analytically would inevitably be less enjoyable—even though that's what the monitoring portion of the study would seem to indicate.</I><BR/><BR/>I found it not to be counterintuitive because of the way the study was described. The test subjects were "civilians", NOT trained musicians, and that's precisely what I would expect of civilians. Had the subjects been trained musicians, and the results were the same, THAT would have been counterintuitive.<BR/><BR/>ACDA.C. Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12090447201234367871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32354680.post-70403761228539660042007-06-22T19:49:00.000-04:002007-06-22T19:49:00.000-04:00I'm one of the "normal" people who doesn't play an...I'm one of the "normal" people who doesn't play an instrument though I tried when young and became frustrated when it turned out I wasn't an overnight virtuoso.<BR/><BR/>I hate people telling me what to listen for in music, particularly in a musical appreciation lecture style, unless it's from a friend who is besotted by a piece of music and who tries to describe it in their individual language.<BR/><BR/>I have an old painter friend who feels the same way about art in museums, so he always brings along earplugs in order to block out the droning from docents trying to Explain The Art.<BR/><BR/>I like to read about music, but usually after I've heard it myself, so that the writing literally has more resonance.Civic Centerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12362422142667230626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32354680.post-679156596940379602007-06-22T16:04:00.000-04:002007-06-22T16:04:00.000-04:00Just to clarify: I think what Marc and I consider ...Just to clarify: I think what Marc and I consider counterintuitive is the idea that listening analytically would inevitably be less enjoyable—even though that's what the monitoring portion of the study would seem to indicate. I think all three of us agree that it makes the experience <I>more</I> enjoyable for us, which is why I suspect early, kinesthetic musical activity is the x-factor that wasn't present (or at least wasn't controlled for) among the volunteers in the study.<BR/><BR/>Marc: one other thing that strikes me about your comments re: musicians and normal people (and yes, that's an accurate assessment, and I'm darn proud of my abnormality) is that it affects the use of the terms <I>simple</I> and <I>complex</I>—musicians usually use those words to refer to the musical vocabulary, whereas laypeople use them to refer to the emotional content. It's one of the reasons the music of someone like Stephen Sondheim, say, gets tagged as "complex"—the musical materials are actually admirably elegant, simple, and straightforward, but the emotional content is often quite varied within a single number (even a funny one—I'm thinking of "Everybody Loves Louis" from <I>Sunday In the Park With George</I>, for example).Matthewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10936327293692397100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32354680.post-26056026105546596052007-06-22T13:34:00.000-04:002007-06-22T13:34:00.000-04:00Marc wrote: It's counterintuitive to those of us ...<B>Marc wrote:</B> <I>It's counterintuitive to those of us with musical training, but entirely understandable for those who don't.</I><BR/><BR/>Perhaps I'm the exception that proves the rule (I'm being kind here). As I've said, none of this sounds counterintuitive to me, and I'm a conservatory-trained musician.<BR/><BR/>ACDA.C. Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12090447201234367871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32354680.post-32454549062874875832007-06-22T12:39:00.000-04:002007-06-22T12:39:00.000-04:00It's counterintuitive to those of us with musical ...It's counterintuitive to those of us with musical training, but entirely understandable for those who don't. We're used to listening analytically because we patiently learned how to do it, learned to derive enjoyment from it, and then decided to do it even when we didn't have to.<BR/><BR/>I've noticed that normal people who didn't pick that up, even on the level of childhood piano lessons, find other ways to enjoy classical music, such as noting the passing moods of a piece or focusing on a single section of the orchestra, or musician in a chamber ensemble. I once talked to a visual artist after Bruckner's Fourth who was surprised by the amount of variation inside a single movement, and found it overwhelming. Happy, sad, ironic, bitter, then happy again; that's a lot to take on when the music you're used to listening to doesn't have that sort of range. A pop or rock album may have that range, but not inside a single song, usually. The trick is how to discuss music in terms they'll understand without watering it down for the hard-core listeners.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11367901003659994894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32354680.post-79544792750833924412007-06-22T11:57:00.000-04:002007-06-22T11:57:00.000-04:00For what it's worth, none of this sounds counterin...For what it's worth, none of this sounds counterintuitive to me. It all sounds as expected, and right on the money, your speculation included.<BR/><BR/>ACDA.C. Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12090447201234367871noreply@blogger.com